This interview took place on March 13, 2024 by Etan Ilfeld
To listen to the full interview you can listen to the podcast episode here.
Etan: It’s been such a treat preparing for this interview. I’ve been a fan of yours for a long time, but I didn’t know that much about you. Obviously, I knew that you loved TM and had been a big advocate and champion for transcendental meditation and that you were the ultimate artist. As you can see, I’ve made a lot of little dog ears in the book, Room to Dream. And I’ve got a lot of notes and it’s been really fun. And I’ve read Catching the Big Fish. And I even started doing TM a week ago.
David: Fantastic, buddy. Fantastic. Who is your teacher?
Etan: His name is James Miles and he’s based in London.
David: Is he a legitimate teacher of transcendental meditation?
Etan: I believe so. I said, you know, if I’m going to come and interview you and I’m going to experience this, I have to do it. I have to do the real thing. So yeah, I signed up for a proper course.
I got my own secret mantra. And it’s interesting because with technology since the pandemic, they’ve changed things a bit. Basically, we met in person and we did the ceremony and they gave me my mantra and we practiced meditating. But since then, we’ve been meditating on Zoom with some other people and there’s an app that I’ve started using – the TM app is really good. I’ve been listening to lectures by Tony Nader and learning a lot.
It forces me to just be. And it’s so simple, right? It’s a very, very simple technique. And it’s definitely made me feel more at peace. I’ve already been sleeping better. And I feel rejuvenated. I’m feeling good so far. So it’s a great start. Obviously, it’s a time commitment, I will say that. But I do see the benefits.
David: Very, very good, Etan.
Etan: Thanks David. Thank you. You’re an inspiration to so many people. So actually, let’s start with that. Let’s talk a bit about TM. After you started doing transcendental meditation, you were much less angry. I think Peggy, your wife at the time, had already started saying something like that. And then you realized that very quickly you became much more relaxed. And I think there’s a quote where you say people think anger is an edge, but anger is a weakness that poisons you and the environment around you. And so could you speak about that, perhaps?
David: Sure. Lots of people have said that anger is a weakness. It’s the truth. You know, human beings are supposed to be happy and get along with one another. And it’s a real shame. We live in a world now that’s so stressful. A lot of people are suffering in one way or another, to one degree or another. And in this frustration and all this stuff, anger comes out. There’s so much domestic abuse, trouble in the homes. The little kids feel this – and the parents. People are struggling for money and both parents are working… it’s a hell hole. And all this road rage and plane rage and all sorts of stuff come out.
And if people could get this technique of transcendental meditation and just sit quietly for 20 minutes twice a day, dive within and contact the big treasury within every human being and bring that out and start living with more and more of that every day, it’d be a different world and people would stop suffering, no matter what their lot in life is.
It’s true. You could have a pretty bad job, but if you’re bubbling with happiness inside, you don’t give a shit, you’re just happy; you’re just getting along great with your fellow workers and you don’t want to hurt anybody. You feel so good inside. And it’s right there for people to get.
All they need is a technique to open the door to that and it’ll flow in. So it’s money in the bank to practice this regularly every day. And then go about your business, whatever that is. You don’t go around holier than thou or goody, goody, two shoes. You just be yourself and do the best you can, but add that TM to your life twice a day. And you can’t lose. You cannot lose.
Etan: Yeah, it seems like a fantastic investment.
David: Absolutely. My friend Charlie Lutes said the most we can do for ourselves is to take that dive within twice a day, bringing out more and more of that consciousness within and that consciousness has qualities, qualities of intelligence, creativity, happiness, love, energy, power, peace. All these things you’re gonna get more and more of. You cannot lose.
Etan: I love it. There’s a lot of other people that have also spoken of this. The Beatles, obviously. Even Seinfeld, I believe. I think I heard he used to do only once a day, but then he upped it finally to two times a day.
David: And he sees the difference already, so he says.
Etan: Yeah, it’s interesting. You talked about all the pain and how things really could be different, how this is a very effective tool to change yourself. And that’s a good way to start in terms of changing the world. At some point, I think you mentioned that Maharishi, before he passed, said he thinks that world peace is coming. I think it was something like the trains have left the station, that they’re headed in the right direction.
When you see all the pain and war and all that stuff – because occasionally, it seems like humanity regresses, despite the fact that we seem to progress occasionally as well – do you still keep the faith?
David: Absolutely. It’s like, you have this medicine sitting on the bedside table, and the patient is very sick, and the medicine will cure the patient. But for some reason, the patient’s arms aren’t reaching out and taking that medicine and getting that little glass of water, taking that pill, that’ll make them feel better. And so you wonder why. But more and more, people are getting to understand that this field within is a glorious field.
And one more thing I gotta add is that, this field of pure consciousness within the transcendent, it has many, many different names throughout history, but it’s Nitya and apaurusheya, meaning eternal and uncreated. No one created this field within. It’s eternal. It never was not; it’s always been. You get hip to this. We can’t conceive of something that never had a beginning, but it alone is; it has always been. We are that, and we start to understand this more and more and more. You know, the secret has always been that. It always has been there and within. You bring it out, you enjoy it. You bring it out powerfully enough, you’ve got peace on the earth. It does for the collective consciousness what TM does for the individual. You get a peace-creating group – and Maharishi brought the technologies to make the groups and make them powerful, enough to raise collective consciousness in the world to bring Real Peace.
And the formula is the square root of 1% of a population. So for the world now, I think it’s like maybe 10,000 people practicing these techniques, these technologies for peace – and on a permanent basis would be the minimum number of peace creating experts needed to raise the collective consciousness of the people of the whole world. I always say if you want to get electricity to the people, you’ve got to get an electric plant. It generates electricity. If you want to get peace for the planet, you’ve got to get a peace-creating factory that generates peace. The technologies are there. Support peace-creating groups, a peace-creating group, or many peace- creating groups. And let’s get a happy, creative, intelligent, loving, powerful, energetic world at peace.
Etan: I love it. And yeah, I think you’re right about the math.
David: It’s a small number to affect the whole world, that’s how powerful it is.
Etan: I want to feel that. Actually, I’ve never experienced TM with a group of people yet. So I will plan to go and do that. But yeah, the idea of 10,000 people meditating together and changing the energy around them, it sounds like an incredibly powerful thing. What’s the largest group that you’ve meditated with?
David: Well, I haven’t meditated with 10,000, but they just had a 10,000 group in India. And they said it was an incredible experience – incredible for the people in the group. And even though it lasted only a couple of weeks, we should see changes in the world based on that.
And you know, the thing is we won’t hear about it on the news because the news promotes fearful things and bad news. People tune in because they’re afraid, and they want to know what they should be afraid of next, or worry about next. And so it’s a very tricky thing, but people are studying the trends, and they see that for the last several years things have been getting better and better. Even though we’ve got these wars, overall things are better. And so we’re going toward a good time, but we need this peace-creating group big enough to do the thing.
Etan: You also say in the book at some point, that if the world had more women as leaders, we’d probably have peace sooner as well.
David: Well, I’ve been on these tours talking to people in many different countries. And I’ve noticed that every place we went, the people of the country are sensational; they’re fantastic. And all the questions are basically the same, country to country to country. The curiosity for transcendental meditation and consciousness and enlightenment and all these things is swimming in all human beings. Yet everyone, every human being knows somehow inside that there’s something more, you know, beyond what the eyes see or the ears hear.
There’s something more beyond all this. And they feel it, but they don’t really know, and they don’t really have time to think about it too much, because we live in such a fast-moving world. It’s the kind of thing you think about sometimes in bed, just before you fall asleep. As you lay there, sometimes you think about things like this, that there’s more to life than what meets the eye. And what is that thing? And why are we really here? And, you know, what are we doing? What is it all about? It’s about unfolding our full potential and realizing who and what we truly are. And it’s like a mystery, but it’s a glorious, glorious mystery. And it’s got a beautiful ending. It’s got a beautiful, beautiful ending.
You just got to get this technique and take care of it and practice it every day. And more and more of this mystery gets unfolded and you start seeing things, and feeling things, and appreciating things, more and more and more. A bigger picture starts emerging. It’s a beautiful thing for human beings at this time.
Etan: You mentioned in the book, I think you were in sixth grade and you had heard from some kid in school about masturbating, and you said you didn’t believe it at first, you know, you hadn’t experienced it. You were very skeptical. And that night you went home, you experimented, which took a while, but then all of a sudden, you said it was like discovering fire. And you say it was just like meditation. Obviously, that’s what you learn later. You learn a technique, and I quote, lo and behold, things start changing, and there it is, it’s real, right?
David: Yeah, exactly.
Etan: So it is an amazing thing, the idea. And in so many ways, I guess, so scientific in the sense that it can be replicated.
David: So scientific, here’s the thing. Now, don’t you think the truth should be able to be truthful from any angle you test it with?
Etan: Yes.
David: So, you notice that there’s so many things going on out there, but the truth of things has to be true for scientists. It has to be true for artists. It has to be true for dentists. It has to be true for golfers. It has to be true for every walk of life; every kind of technique known to test things, the truth has to hold up. And this truth of consciousness, it will always hold up, because it alone is.
It will always hold up. The quantum physics will go at it, you know, and all kinds of stuff will go at it, and all these different philosophies will go at it. But it will hold up, because it is that. We are that. And it just is that way. All through the years I’ve heard about all these different other techniques, and other things, and other ways. And I always say we’re like detectives. And so we test things. We go and we are always looking for clues. We’re looking for this and looking for that. If I had found something that was better than TM, I’m not stupid, I would have gone and done that. We’re looking for the best thing we can get for ourselves.
And I’ve seen all these different things. I’ve seen them come and go. And it’s like this holds up no matter what. Yes, there are doubts along the path, but the doubts can, when they’re overcome through common sense and some deep thinking and some experience or whatever, then you go, you stay on the path.
If a doubt is strong enough to throw you off, if it’s a true path you’re on, you won’t be away from it for very long. You’ll be back when you’ve found that thing to remove your doubt. With TM, I never got thrown off the path. Never. I had doubts, but they were always overcome. And other techniques, I see they’d fall away. By other techniques, I mean other teachers, other things going on in the world. So the truth should be truthful from no matter which way you attack it. And if you see this truth of consciousness, it holds up.
Etan: It’s interesting because you say you tried different things as well. Somewhere in the book, you mentioned a good friend of yours, Alan Splet, who did a lot of incredible sound design with you. And apparently he went to Findhorn here in the UK. He was also into Ouspensky and Gurdjieff and all these things. And you mentioned that you guys would argue but discuss these things. But none of that actually resonated. So you had tried that stuff. Did Al ever get into TM?
David: You know, it’s a weird thing. I’m not sure.
Etan: Because he died, right?
David: Yeah, I talked to Alan about Transcendental Meditation for sure. But I got to ask Anne, his wife, I’m not sure he ever learned. I don’t think he did. But towards the end he might have. I can’t remember.
Etan: But as you say, you don’t know until you try, right?
David: You don’t know until you know. Yeah, and that’s the thing. Like I didn’t know what I was getting when I started TM. All I knew is I wanted it. I wanted what they said it was. But I didn’t know for sure at all. And I was lucky because I had a credible experience when I first started. And so I was on board right from the get-go.
Etan: Are we talking like the first couple of days? What do you mean the get-go – how fast would you say?
David: Well, when they gave me my mantra, they took me to this little room. Well, there’s a little place where they said to sit quietly and start the mantra and they’ll be back in 20 minutes to get me. So I just closed my eyes and started the mantra. And I said, it was as if I was in an elevator and they snipped the cables. Boom! I just went in and just got filled with bliss. And so I was a happy camper. But a lot of times people don’t have that experience for a while, but when they hear that other people have that experience and it’s real, then they say, “okay, I’ll stay with it,” but the thing is you don’t meditate for an experience. You meditate as you were taught, but not trying. It’s hard for people these days when you live in a world where you’ve got to try hard, work hard, try hard. Here’s a technique, no trying. Trying actually gets in the way.
Etan: Take it as it comes, right?
David: Take it as it comes. Here goes nothing for 20 minutes. It’s the best attitude, my friend Charlie Lutes used to say. Here goes nothing for 20 minutes. And if you go off on a thought and you forget the mantra, or go away from the mantra and realize you haven’t been with the mantra, you don’t beat yourself up. You just… next thought the mantra. And it’s just like that, easy- effortless, easy-effortless, easy-effortless, no trying. And away you go, 20 minutes and you go about your business.
Etan: So simple. So let me ask you, because obviously, during TM, you’re not supposed to take notes – and I assume you don’t – but if you have ideas, usually they come after, or how does it work?
David: Okay, here’s the thing. John Lennon was with Maharishi in 1968. And he said, Maharishi, sometimes I get an idea in the meditation. What do I do? And Maharishi said, look, meditation isn’t to get ideas. You don’t do it like that. You know what I mean? You’re going to get ideas outside of meditation and that’s fine.
And you’re going to get more ideas if you meditate regularly. Better ideas, bigger ideas.But if you get an idea while you’re meditating and it’s really a good idea, you’re going to be thinking about that idea, not be meditating, right? So Maharishi said, keep a little note pad near you when you meditate with a pen or pencil. And if you get a really good idea when you’re down in there, come gently out, write the idea down in such a way that you won’t forget it when you read it later. Put the notebook down and then go gently back in.
Because sometimes down in there, you’ll get an idea and you’ll say, I’ll never forget this. I’ll never forget this idea, but down in there, it’s a different world. And when you come back out, if you forget that idea, you’ll really feel suicidal. So it’s better to come gently out, write it down and go gently back in.
Etan: But you’ve got to really feel there’s a good reason. You don’t just…
David: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Etan: I’m trying to remember which film it was where you had something similar. Blue Velvet was from a dream, but there was something else where you had…
David: Mulholland Drive.
Etan: Mulholland Drive – that was meditating. Yes. And is that what happened? Did you jot it down in the middle or how did that go?
David: Mulholland Drive, this was a sensational thing. What I think was happening during the past year, before this meditation, I’d been thinking about these things in the back of my brain. But anyway, it came to pass that I got the green light to finish Mulholland Drive as a feature. And that night, I sat down to meditate. And before I sat down, I didn’t have any ideas of how I was going to change this open-ended pilot to a feature film.
I sat down to meditate. And as I say, like a string of pearls, the ideas came, one after another. And when I came out of meditation, I had every idea I needed to finish.
Etan: Amazing. I think you were saying you wrote like 18 pages in the end. You got the love scenes, a little bit of sex was added, all these little things that really rounded out the film and changed it completely. Something like that, right?
David: Something like that.
Etan: That’s awesome. So, you’ve had a few phases in your life when you were nocturnal. Is there something magical about the night? Or, what was that all about, if I may ask?
David: Well, the night, as we all know, is different than the day. And so it should be experienced at some time to see what it is, the feelings of the night and the thoughts of the night. I don’t know what I would be if I was just left alone and in a prison, say, if I would be in a cell, if I’d become more of a night person or a day person, I don’t know.
I don’t know what would happen to me, but mostly the things that are going on force all of us to be day people. All during Eraserhead, we had to shoot at night because that way we had nobody around to bother us. And it worked out that way. It worked out really well being night people.
But a lot of times with films, businesses, and things going on in school and different things, they all happen during the day. So we become day people. But everybody knows the night has got its own mood and it should be experienced from time to time.
Etan: I agree. I used to be an extreme night owl. Another thing that comes across is your belief in fate and destiny. It seems like throughout your life, you’ve experienced so many different things. And there are different points, I guess, where you could say you also were in danger to some extent. And some of that perhaps came into your films. I mean, it’s interesting that you liked making pipe bombs as a kid. It feels like there’s this creative destruction there. And I love the story where you said you tried to get rid of some bullets that a friend had given you and you wrapped them up in newspaper and put them in the trash. And your mom put the bundle in the fireplace and these stray bullets went off. It’s such a crazy story. Something bad could have happened, but it didn’t, right? And maybe in a way that makes it into that funny scene with a hitman in Mulholland Drive, with the stray bullets. Then you mentioned how you were high on dope at one point and driving on a freeway and stopped in the middle of it. Again, luckily nothing happened. But it’s interesting how fate makes things happen. Sometimes we’re safe, sometimes we’re protected, sometimes we’re not. You had that break with Mel Brooks that got you to The Elephant Man. What is fate to you? And also, there’s a place where I think they mentioned that you liked looking out for license plate numbers on cars, as good omens, something like that; especially looking for your initials, DKL.
David: The license plate game, yeah.
Etan: So, what is that?
David: Ultimately, anybody can play the game – as a passenger!!! The driver obviously should keep eyes on the road. You have your initials and your favorite number and your favorite car. Okay, that’s all you need. Then you have certain numbers that you don’t want. Like, if you get three sixes in a row, on a license plate, that would not be good.
And you’re not allowed to stop your car until you see three other numbers in a row, say three threes or three fours. And so you have to drive around until you see those. And if you do see a car with your initials and numbers adding up to your favorite number – and on your favorite car – then this is an extremely good omen.
On the way to pitch Twin Peaks to ABC, Mark Frost and I were driving. Mark was driving, I was riding shotgun. And a car came around the corner ahead of us and started coming toward us. And it was a brand new white Mercedes with my initials and numbers adding up to nine. And I said, “Mark, this is going to be a very auspicious meeting, we’re headed to,” and it turned out to be.
Etan: You could say the same thing about when you came to LA, how on the very first day, you got a house, a car and car insurance, and the universe just kind of welcoming you in a way, right?
David: I’m telling you, fate drives the boat. And we human beings, I don’t know what we do really. We don’t do much of anything.
We’re guided by fate and luck. And it keeps us sometimes out of bad trouble or it gets us into bad trouble. It’s amazing this thing of fate. And I’ve been so lucky in my life. I can’t tell you, just so lucky. And, you know, I think the greatest luck is getting that mantra and learning transcendental meditation. Because that’s the luck, that’s the thing that you’ll take away. You can’t take the money. You can’t take the fame. You can’t take, you know, these things that bring some happiness in this world. But you can take consciousness away. Consciousness is a continuum. And what you gain in consciousness in your practice of transcendental meditation, you’ll never lose. And full consciousness, the whole enchilada, is enlightenment. We’re unfolding our enlightenment with every meditation. And it’s there in our future. And it’s not that far away in the big picture. In the big picture it’s very close.
But the big picture is so huge. It’s like there’s lots of lots of time and lots of lots of space. But it’s money in the bank to meditate regularly. That’s the long and the short of it.
Etan: That’s cool. And you mention reincarnation at some point as well. How your past lives are visiting you in this life, right?
David: No, not your past lives are visiting us – our past actions are visiting us. They say we’re on a wheel of birth and death. So enlightenment is stepping off that wheel. No more need to be born and die. You’re there. You’re 100% immortal. Total fulfillment, total bliss. You have the whole thing, and it’s eternal. So this is in our future. But until then, you have to have these lives to unfold it. It can only be unfolded in a physical body. In between lives, you can’t do it. So you take these bodies and bring it out, you know, bring it out through transcending; until you’re enlightened. And it can take a long time. Most people, these days, they don’t even believe in reincarnation. They’d say, you only go around once.
And, you know, if you really thought about only going around once… your girlfriend dies. How would you ever deal with that? They would never exist again, ever. You never see them again, ever. No, you make it crazy. It’s like you go from life to absolutely nothing. No, I don’t believe that.
And yet I can’t tell you, for no one can prove what happens on the other side. It’s like anybody’s guess until it happens. You can say, I believe this would happen, but you can’t prove it. And the atheists, they say, you know, it’s all bullshit, you go around once and that’s it. And the agnostics are somewhere in between. And there’s ones who believe this or believe that – all these different beliefs. But there really is only one truth. And some day, somehow it’ll all get sorted out. And everyone will be happy. But right now, it’s like a jumble out there.
Etan: I love that. It seems like you’re probing, you’re experimenting in many ways, trying to transcend, even in your art. You’ve done so many things – almost every art form practically. Two more art forms come to mind. It’s a bit of a cliché, but have you thought of writing a novel, perhaps an experimental novel? And the other is a bit more of a niche, but have you ever thought of making an oracle, like a tarot deck or something like that?
David: No, never thought about that. I’m not a writer, really. I would rather get ideas and input into the language of cinema. I like painting. I like drawing. I like lithography. I like all these stills, photography, I really like. I like music. And I like sound. I like experimenting with sound and music. I like so many things, but to write a novel, you know, maybe not.
I was going to take up sewing, but I haven’t gotten into that yet… (laughs).
Etan: It’s never too late! I do think the oracle thing, you should think about it. Designers – and I know you’ve built furniture – and artists often do create their own deck, their own oracle. Anyway, you keep on living the art life and making stuff. You’re an inspiration, you really are.
David: Bless your heart, Etan. And you keep on keeping on. I wish you all the best and stay regular in your practice of transcendental meditation. I’ve been meditating almost 51 years and I never missed a meditation twice a day. So it’s possible.
Etan: It’s unbelievable. I guess your ritual and your habit is such a strong part of your creativity, right?
David: Yeah, I guess so.
Etan: Okay, thank you so much, David. I’m very grateful. This has been a real honor.
David: Thank you.
MEET THE AUTHORS
DAVID LYNCH was a director, screenwriter, visual artist, musician, and author. In 1973, he was initiated into Transcendental Meditation, and has practiced the technique consistently since then. In 2005, he launched the David Lynch Foundation for Consciousness-Based Education and Peace, established to fund the teaching of TM in schools and research on the technique and its effects on learning. His book, Catching the Big Fish (2006), discusses the impact of the TM. David passed away in January 2025.
ETAN ILFELD double majored in mathematics and physics at Stanford University, and added to his eclectic
education a master’s in film from the University of Southern California, and a master’s in interactive media from Goldsmiths, University of London. He is owner and managing director of Watkins Publishing and Watkins Bookshop, and the editor-in-chief of Watkins Mind Body Spirit magazine. His free podcast entitled The Etan Ilfeld Podcast features interviews with visionary thinkers.